What if we’re too late for a “Just Transition”, and the best we can hope for is a “Just Collapse”?
What if both climate activism and climate tech innovation, as responses to imminent climate collapse, are just the “bargaining” stage of a process of grief?
Should those who put our lives into solutions dismiss people who argue that as “Doomers”, or is there a potential for common ground on things like adaptation?
Dr.
started as an alter-globalisation protest leader in 1999 before embracing climate activism. But a crisis of faith led him radical shift from fighting for climate prevention to advocating for resilience and adaptation strategies amidst what he perceives as an inevitable collapse.A spat on BlueSky with climate analyst and previous guest Ketan Joshi led to the suggestion to come on the show.
differs on the inevitability, but this is a conversation, not a shouting match. It roams from LNG to “electric capitalism” to the and crises of faith to Michael E. Mann to Isaac Asimov to adaptation.A bit different from our usual topics, but we hope you listen - maybe after settling in with a glass of wine. Email us at info@wickedproblems.uk to let us know what you think.
Time Codes & Highlights
[00:00:17] - Tadzio Mueller's critique of climate tech optimism and his view on the magical thinking surrounding green industrialization.
[00:00:43] - Discussion on the moral and historical implications of reaching planetary boundaries, with a unique perspective on activism, societal structures, and potential futures.
[00:04:38] - Introduction to Tadzio Mueller, his background, and his evolution from an alter-globalization activist to a proponent of the "just collapse" theory.
[00:05:20] - Insights into the dynamics of climate activism, the limitations of summit protests, and the strategic shifts within the movement.
[00:11:04] - Mueller's personal journey through activism, including his preemptive arrest in 2009 and the realization of the inadequacies of current climate activism strategies.
[00:17:31] - A critical examination of the relationship between economic growth and emissions, challenging the feasibility of decoupling them in the context of climate change.
[00:26:59] - Exploring the psychological barriers to effective climate action, including societal repression and denial, and their impact on policy and activism.
[00:33:56] - Introduction to the concept of "just collapse," its implications for society, and the necessity for a reevaluation of activism and societal priorities in the face of climate collapse and rising fascism.
[00:54:58] - Mueller's take on the limitations of the degrowth movement and the distinction between analytical frameworks and actionable strategies in addressing climate collapse.
[01:07:03] - Reflections on COVID-19 as a moment of potential leverage for governments to influence capitalism and its relevance to climate activism.
Recommended Resources
Peaceful Sabotage - Where you can find his writings in German and English.
Tadzio speaks in 2015 outside COP21 in Paris about the “Ende Gellände” movement that led to the pledge to phaseout lignite coal in Germany.
Lützerath - the German village bulldozed in 2023 for a coalmine, and a turning point for Dr. Mueller.
We hope today's episode with Dr. Tadzio Mueller was challenging, in a good way. If you thought so too, please share and leave us a rating and review on your favourite podcast platform.
We’ll be back soon with episodes with Green MEP Ciaran Cuffe, Zenobe co-Founder Steven Meersman, and what might be a bookend to this conversation, a chat with Solitaire Townsend, author of “The Solutionists”.
PS - one of the best chaps on the internet,
gets our respect for the “Slugger O’Toole Rule”, different from Godwin’s Law.
Tadzio Mueller: The Case for Just Collapse