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You know that sinking feeling when you wake up with a hangover and think: “I’m never doing this again”? We’ve all been there. But what happens when you follow through? Sonia Kahlon and Kathleen Killen can tell you, because they did it! They went from sisters-in-law, to Sisters in Sobriety.
In this podcast, Sonia and Kathleen invite you into their world, as they navigate the ups and downs of sobriety, explore stories of personal growth and share their journey of wellness and recovery.
Get ready for some real, honest conversations about sobriety, addiction, and everything in between. Episodes will cover topics such as: reaching emotional sobriety, how to make the decision to get sober, adopting a more mindful lifestyle, socializing without alcohol, and much more.
Whether you’re sober-curious, seeking inspiration and self-care through sobriety, or embracing the alcohol-free lifestyle already… Tune in for a weekly dose of vulnerability, mutual support and much needed comic relief. Together, let’s celebrate the transformative power of sisterhood in substance recovery!
Kathleen Killen is a registered psychotherapist (qualifying) and certified coach based in Ontario, Canada. Her practice is centered on relational therapy and she specializes in couples and working with individuals who are navigating their personal relationships.
Having been through many life transitions herself, Kathleen has made it her mission to help others find the support and communication they need in their closest relationships. To find out more about Kathleen’s work, check out her website.
Sonia Kahlon is a recovery coach and former addict. She grappled with high-functioning alcohol use disorder throughout her life, before getting sober in 2016. Sonia is now the founder of EverBlume, a digital tool that offers a unique approach to alcohol recovery support.
Over the last five years, she has appeared on successful sobriety platforms, such as the Story Exchange, the Sobriety Diaries podcast and the Sober Curator, to tell her story of empowerment and addiction recovery, discuss health and midlife sobriety, and share how she is thriving without alcohol.
Her online platform EverBlume launched in February 2023, and was featured in Recovery Today Magazine and deemed an ‘essential sobriety resource’ by the FemTech Insider.
The company champions self-improvement and mindful sobriety, with support groups designed by and for women struggling with alcohol.
So how can EverBlume help you meet your sober community? By offering deeply personalized support. Members get matched based on their profiles and life experiences, and take part in small group sessions (max. 16 people). In your support group, you will meet like-minded women, discuss your experiences, and gain confidence, knowing you can rely on your peers in times of need.
Whether you identify as a binge drinker, someone who developed a habit during the Covid-19 pandemic, a high-functioning alcoholic, or an anxious person using alcohol to self-soothe… There is a support group for you!
Current EverBlume members have praised the company’s unique approach to alcohol detox. “No one is judging me for not being sure I want to be sober for the rest of my life” ; “I felt so heard and understood and today I woke up feeling empowered to make the change in my life”.
Feeling inspired? Learn more about the EverBlume sobriety community at joineverblume.com, or simply listen to Sisters In Sobriety.
Your sobriety success story starts today, with Kathleen and Sonia. Just press play!
[00:00:00] Sonia: Hi, we're Kathleen and Sonia and you're listening to Sisters in Sobriety. Thanks for being here. [00:01:00] I'm Sonia and I'm with my sister in sobriety, actually my sister in law, Kathleen. Kathleen, how are you doing today?
[00:01:06] Kathleen: I'm really good today, actually. Woohoo. Yeah, I'm doing, I'm doing well. How are you?
[00:01:12] Sonia: I'm good. I, booked a solo trip to Portugal, which I'm excited about and actually good timing because we were talking about dating and sobriety today and I decided that I am not really. focused on dating right now, but I'm focusing on myself, but I do have some good nuggets, just in time for Valentine's Day.
[00:01:36] And so I think dating in sorority doesn't just mean navigating romantic relationships without alcohol. It really involves relearning how to form connections and understanding our emotions without numbing it with alcohol. And it's really an amazing process of self discovery. And for me, it isn't just about finding love or [00:02:00] companionship.
[00:02:00] It's really an opportunity to build relationships that are based on honesty and respect and genuine affection.
[00:02:09] Kathleen: Yeah, I think that's a really good summary of it. You know, dating while maintaining sobriety is Is really a balance of vulnerability and strength and it's about setting boundaries, you know, I love boundaries so it's about setting boundaries, but also being true to one's sobriety commitments and Finding someone who respects and supports this very, very important aspect of our lives.
[00:02:33] So in today's episode we will explore the joys challenges and lessons of dating while sober And it's a very unique aspect of recovery. So let's begin this journey together
[00:02:43]
[00:02:44] Sonia: But this episode isn't just about the challenges, it's also about the amazing ways sobriety can deepen your relationships by learning to communicate honestly and really experiencing a level of connection you might have not thought was possible when alcohol was in the [00:03:00] picture.
[00:03:00] So, Whether you are starting out on your sobriety journey or have been on this path for a while, we are here to talk about it all, the good, the bad, everything in between. So grab a cup of tea and let's get real about sobriety and dating. You are not alone in this. Let's navigate this together. And to start Kathleen, I think a good way to start this discussion is to talk about if sober dating is different from let's call it impaired.
[00:03:30] Slash not sober dating.
[00:03:32] Kathleen: Uh, yeah. Have you ever heard of beer goggles? Yes. Short answer, yes. without alcohol to numb emotions, sober dating really requires someone to face their feelings of nervousness, rejection, vulnerability. It can be really challenging, but it can also be really rewarding in terms of personal growth.
[00:03:56] so alcohol or drugs might temporarily [00:04:00] mask these feelings, but it doesn't help dealing with them in the long run.when you are sober dating, you probably can have more honest conversations and I know that people be like, what are, what are you talking about? When I was drinking, I was able to just say whatever I want, but I mean like emotionally honest conversations.
[00:04:19] and also, some of the things you might do might be different, as well in terms of dating. What do you think? How is sober dating different from not sober dating?
[00:04:32] Sonia: Yeah, I agree with everything you said. And so I think I've been sober dating for the first time in my life. The last, let's say, maybe. four, five, six months. And yeah, everything just feels a lot more heightened. I'm for sure. I'm more nervous. I'm more aware of myself, like my body. And I think I will say my favorite part of sober dating.
[00:04:56] And I think I've told you this is getting home [00:05:00] sober and waking up sober. So some of the best nights I've had are getting home from a mediocre date. Sober andwatching some housewives and eating some popcorn and then waking up in the morning feeling good. And so, yeah, I think that for me has been the best part of sober dating.
[00:05:22] Kathleen: What is one of your key takeaways for our listeners on sober dating?
[00:05:28] Sonia: My key takeaway has been that you have to be really picky about who you choose to go on a date with and have a certain standard of what's acceptable to you and I never worry about being too picky. And especially, when it comes to drinking, so how much someone drinks. And so if someone, if it looks like they like to party and go to the club and that's their thing, then that's probably not the person for you if [00:06:00] you're trying to have a pretty low key sober lifestyle.
[00:06:03] what do you think that the listeners should be
[00:06:07] Kathleen: Well, I think first off, I think that listeners should think about whether they actually want to date. I think that's the first thing. Are you ready to date? So want to date? Are you ready to date? And then if you decide that you actually want to date, what are you looking for? Are you looking to date just for fun?
[00:06:26] Are you looking to date to eventually get in a relationship? And then there's the list, and you know I am big. on this list. And the list I'm talking about is, I had a therapist once who told me about this. And she basically said, before you start dating, especially if you're dating to get into a relationship, she said, write down a list of all the qualities that you are looking for in someone else.
[00:06:54] And then Choose your non negotiables and so after I got a [00:07:00] divorce from your brother, I, I did the list and I had certain non negotiables on that list and I think it helps focus you so when you're not swept away by the dopamine and serotonin that can, be infused in your brain while you're dating, you can have this list and look back on it and say,is this the person that, Is this a person that I want to spend time with?
[00:07:29] Sonia: Yes.
[00:07:29] Kathleen: Yeah, but I didn't have the list before I met him. I did not have the list before I met him. If I did, I wouldn't have married him, but then I wouldn't have got to know you. I wouldn't have my daughter.
[00:07:40] Sonia: I mean, I love the guy, but he's like a waving red flag.
[00:07:44] Kathleen: I, I know that. And I didn't have a list, which I wish I had, but now I have a list. Sonya, what effect do you think? Being sober had or has on dating for you.
[00:07:59] Sonia: [00:08:00] What's so interesting before we started recording, we were just talking about how I'm thinking of taking like a little break from dating. I've had like a few. sequential situationships and what we were talking about is that, and I have girlfriends that date, really frequently, right? Like two to three dates a week, get into a situationship, kind of keep looking and And I was saying, I think there is some level of like a dopamine hit from dating.
[00:08:28] And so, and for me, not the same completely as alcohol. I wasn't, I'm not addicted, to dating, but that dopamine hit makes it harder for you to stop and think. And so, yeah, I think that's the difference is that I, I now am like, I'm pausing, and I'm not letting that dopamine kind of rush get the best of me.
[00:08:56] And, and I think because I think you saw me [00:09:00] making some compromises, right? And
[00:09:02] Kathleen: Mm hmm
[00:09:03] Sonia: with the last situationship, I compromised on how much I was willing to accept about how much someone drank. So, yeah. What about you? What do you think the effect was when you started dating?
[00:09:18] Kathleen: Well, I didn't actually, like, after I stopped using drugs, I went for actually over a year without dating anyone and this was by choice. I moved, so I got sober, and then I was in Toronto for a little bit and then I moved to Hong Kong for work for a while and I made a very, very, very conscious decision not to date because I just didn't.
[00:09:42] I wasn't interested, but I also didn't feel ready. I felt like so raw to the world and, I really wanted to focus on myself. So I actually didn't start dating, um, for about a year and a half.
[00:09:55] Sonia: Interesting. I think that we can agree that sobriety [00:10:00] does affect how you date.
[00:10:01] Kathleen: I think so. Yes, I think so for sure. And sometimes you don't see it until you're actually in the situation.
[00:10:08] Sonia: Yeah, or in my case, when I tell the committee about my dates, which is like you, my other sister in law, my nieces, and a few of my super good friends.
[00:10:18] Kathleen: Yeah. I mean, I definitely saw. I saw some things evolving with the last person you dated. Do you want to talk more about it?
[00:10:27] Sonia: Not really, but I will, I will take one for the team and I will, I will run through a string of bizarre and incompatible people for you here. Hopefully for someone to get some information from it.
[00:10:42]
[00:10:45] Sonia: So, the first person I dated after my divorce, so the first date I'd ever been on sober, was someone who was sober.
[00:10:54] And it felt really safe. it never progressed, so I don't have any long term data. But I do remember [00:11:00] being on the date and feeling like, Oh, okay. This isn't that bad because I don't have to explain, why I'm not ordering a glass of wine. And so that was great. the second one, oh, this is a good one.
[00:11:10] This one lasted about a month. And again, great said he didn't drink. He did, however, smoke weed for headaches and took edibles. So any form of THC. And do you remember this?
[00:11:26] Kathleen: Oh yeah,
[00:11:27] Sonia: When he insisted I take a, he, what he called a CBD bath bomb, and it was actually A THC bath bomb, and I was really hesitant regardless of what it was.
[00:11:43] I was like, you know, I have to be really careful about anything mind altering. And he was like, no, no, it just feels like a body massage. Nothing, psychoactive. So I did it. He, really pushed. And then I rememberafter, I felt really nauseous, like the same as when I smoked weed. [00:12:00] And then, I didn't, I didn't end the situationship right away, but looking back, that should have been the moment.
[00:12:07] oh, this last one was good. This last one was almost a couple of months and I was so clear because I could tell just from like conversations about like general lifestyle, that it seemed like he went out a lot and drank a lot. Right? And so I was really clear about. I really don't want to date anyone who has more than one drink at dinner, maybe two on a special occasion and he was totally fine with it.
[00:12:35] And I even mentioned things that I wouldn't do. I said, I'm not going to go to a winery with you. I'm not going to go to a brewery. I'm not going to go on a pub crawl. And he was like, yep, no problem. But I could see all the signs there and I ignored them in favor of what. He had said and so and then yeah, remember we were good for like a month He never had more than one drink in front of me.
[00:12:58] then Then [00:13:00] he sort of like let it go like he had like maybe three or four drinks one night and then maybe like six drinks The next night and so I remember it like right when it was happening.
[00:13:11] I didn't process it but when I told you guys about it, you were like what andthat's a really good learning experience is to, is to tell people and to be really open. And so, yeah, I mean, this guy was, clearly lacking healthy coping mechanisms because he was saying like, Oh, I just like to unwind with a drink after work.
[00:13:36] So that, that is my colorful dating history of the last few months.
[00:13:42] Kathleen: and colorful it is. And so you, you mentioned, you know, talking like to the guys that you were dating about the fact that you're sober. So how do you navigate those early dating [00:14:00] conversations about not drinking?
[00:14:02] Sonia: yeah, I'm, I'm really up front about the fact that I don't drink. I'm not necessarily like shouting the reason, that I don't drink because I had a problem with alcohol. But if somebody asks me why don't you drink? I will tell them I had a problem with alcohol. but I usually add, and this is true, like, I'm way more fun Yeah.
[00:14:20] Yeah. Then I used to be, and how good my life is since I got sober. There's moments when I tell somebody that I feel that like nervousness or like this little like bubble of shame. But once, once I say it, I feel really good about it.
[00:14:37] And, and, you know, we say this all the time. If someone doesn't want to go out with me because of that. They're not the right person.
[00:14:44] Kathleen: Yes, that's true. And so not everyone, like not everyone you're going to tell is going to react positively to your sobriety. So what are some coping strategies when a date reacts negatively?[00:15:00]
[00:15:00] Sonia: Yeah, so if the person is honest, we will not end up going on the date. Right? Which is the best case scenario. and that has happened to me a couple of times and you can tell, when you're talking to somebody, and they mention alcohol a lot. They're like, oh, went out, have a hangover.
[00:15:16] And so usually you can tell, Okay. And so again, yeah, there's no point in starting something with someone who's going to have a problem with it or who's going to think that they can, encourage you to drink and be like, Oh, you can have a drink. Um, and so I think for me, the best coping strategy has been to lean on people.
[00:15:34] when that happens, like, when I'm feeling like. Oh, who's going to go out with me? I'm sober, I'm vegetarian, I'm divorced. it's really good to talk about it. And
[00:15:43] Kathleen: Why? Wait a second. Why was, why was sober, vegetarian, and then divorced in the same sentence?
[00:15:53] Sonia: well,
[00:15:54] Kathleen: negative things?
[00:15:55] Sonia: it's their lifestyle choices, right? And so the [00:16:00] vegetarian thing has been an issue twice out of those three situationships, okay? Two of these guys. Spent entire dinners, one, eating a raw steak and two, explaining to me how I wasn't getting enough protein as a vegetarian and how red meat was the healthiest thing that you could eat for your body.
[00:16:26] That's why I'm putting vegetarian in there because
[00:16:29] Kathleen: okay, okay.
[00:16:31] Sonia: then. Wow, I'm really, I'm, I'm, I'm on one right now. Then the divorce thing is I've been dating. These men in their mid 40s who have never had a long term relationship.
[00:16:46] Kathleen: Red flag. Agreed.
[00:16:49] Sonia: never married, no kids, which, okay, fine, fine, fine. But most of them haven't had a relationship longer than a couple of years.
[00:16:56] I was in a relationship for 18 years. So I'm just saying, [00:17:00] there could be a disconnect there.
[00:17:04] Kathleen: Agreed.
[00:17:05] Sonia: Do you have any tips on discussing sobriety in a dating context?
[00:17:09] Kathleen: I think, I do think it's really good to discuss it early in the dating process becauseyou're going to weed out a lot of people, choose a moment where you feel comfortable and the conversation feels natural. I really think honesty is the key.
[00:17:21] and being clear and straightforward about your sobriety, I think is really important. Like you said, I don't think you need to delve into personal details or reasons unless you want to. A simple statement like, I don't drink because I'm focusing on a sober lifestyle. Like that, you could say that.
[00:17:37] And I think framing your sobriety in a positive light. So. Like, just like you did, focusing on the benefits that brings to your life, such as clearer thinking, better health, more meaningful experiences. I think this helps present it as a personal choice rather than a limitation, but everyone has different perspectives on sobriety.
[00:17:56] Some people might be supportive, others might be [00:18:00] curious, others might be uncomfortable. And so you have to sort of respect that reaction, right? And be prepared for questions. And if there are certain situations that you're uncomfortable with, like dates in bars or parties where alcohol is like the central thing, then communicate that.
[00:18:16] And I think it's important to set and respect. Boundaries love the word to maintain your comfort and your sobriety. And it sounds like you were doing that. You were saying like with your last situation ship, you know, I'm not going to go to the pub crawl. so you set.
[00:18:31] The boundaries around that.
[00:18:32] Sonia: So let's assume you are dating someone who does drink. How do you determine What your bar is for too much. So, is this person drinking too much for me to be comfortable? And, if they are, do you ever talk to them about it? Or is it a done deal if they are over that bar? I really like to know what your answer is because this happened to me.
[00:18:56] Kathleen: Yeah, I think it's a really good question. And I don't know if you're going to love the [00:19:00] answer because I think it really depends on each person and what they're comfortable with. So I know personally that I could not date someone who drinks. In excess pretty much ever could I date someone who has a glass of wine a few times a week.
[00:19:15] Yes, I could do that. And I do. I am doing that. I am dating someone who has a glass of wine a few times a week, but that may not be for everyone is someone else may need to date someone who is completely sober. Could I date someone who uses drugs on a semi frequent basis? No, definitely not cocaine. Forget it.
[00:19:33] No way. no way it is a hard. No, so I have my own bar. and, I think that if you're communicating what your boundaries are, you would hope that the other person could say, no, that's not me. in your case, Sonia. I think the person was like, it's okay. I, I, yeah, I'm okay. And then wasn't, [00:20:00] so you had to make a decision.
[00:20:02] this person clearly is out of my. You know, my, my window of tolerance for drinking and sobriety. So, so that was a harder decision. And I think it's good because you found out like two months in and not one year. And, but then again, I don't think you're going to find that out one year in, I think you're going to find that out pretty soon.
[00:20:21] Sonia: Yeah, I agree. And, yeah, it, I mean, so in, in the, conversation about do you talk to him about it, I did tell you, and you did not say, well, why don't you talk to him about it and see?
[00:20:30] Kathleen: yeah, yeah. Because at first, okay, let's go back to this. Let's rewind because when you told me that he drinks, um, There was a part of me that's like, okay, he's been a bachelor for years and years and years. He hangs out with his bros all the time. so maybe that's just the lifestyle he's living, but maybe it's not a problem.
[00:20:53] Because he was so okay with it and like, no problem, like I, I'm not going to drink, blah, blah, blah.
[00:20:59] I was [00:21:00] like, okay, let's see how this goes. But you'll recall when he did have those like six drinks or whatever and was drinking specifically to, cope with stress. I was like, Uh, hard no. Like that was like my instant, it's gotta be done.
[00:21:18] Sonia: I will say the best advice you ever gave me was when we were talking about this a couple weeks ago and you said, guys, wait for it. You cannot date someone's potential.
[00:21:31] Kathleen: Mm
[00:21:31] Sonia: because I am one of those people that is like when they meet the right person, they'll want to settle down and have a different lifestyle.
[00:21:39] It's like, I cannot date what I think that they're going to be.
[00:21:44] Kathleen: No. And I really think that words are words, but actions are I mean, actions speak louder than words, right? So I would have been like, hmm, that's good if his actions backed up his words. I'd be like, okay, like maybe [00:22:00] there's potential there. But the fact is that they didn't. They were misaligned and yeah, you can't date someone's potential.
[00:22:06] Absolutely. what are some red flags to look out for in dating that could threaten someone's sobriety?
[00:22:13] Sonia: I mean, let's put all the other kind of like the how much they drink and all those things aside. my sobriety is threatened by my triggers. Right? And this was probably the most interesting part of dating was realizing how my triggers could be activated.
[00:22:31] And so someone who is critical of me. is a major trigger. someone who's inconsistent is a huge trigger for me. And when I say trigger, it triggers my anxiety, and that anxiety makes me want to drink. And so, someone who's not open about their feelings, and so, that anything where I have to guess Is a trigger, right?
[00:22:55] So anytime I have to guess someone's like motivation feeling,[00:23:00] those are triggers and they really, they really spark this, fight or flight response in me. And so, you know, I think everyone needs to do this. And especially when you're sober, you need to be with someone who doesn't activate your triggers, right?
[00:23:16] Kathleen: Yeah, as a couples therapist, I'm going to say usually the people we choose are the people that activate us most. it's true. Relationships activate us most in terms of they bring out the vulnerabilities in us. They trigger us the most. And so relationships, are a vehicle for the most growth and change.
[00:23:41] But yes, to get into a relationship, you have to be very committed to your self development, your self growth, and your sobriety. Because it will trigger you, no matter what.
[00:23:55] Sonia: Yes, yeah, I agree with you. so you have actually [00:24:00] successfully navigated dating and entering a new relationship sober. So, as our resident expert, can you tell us a little bit about being in a relatively new relationship sober?
[00:24:16]
[00:24:20] Kathleen: when I first got sober, I didn't. Date and I was really trying to figure myself out. The person I had been dating before I became sober was a pretty heavy cocaine user and he was someone I really liked and I had a strong connection with and so things got muddled in my head a little bit and I just needed to cut out.
[00:24:38] I wasn't doing drugs when I met your brother, but I was still drinking. And after my divorce, even though I didn't drink very much in my marriage at all, after my divorce, I had a period of drinking more heavily just for a few weeks after my separation. And I was like, what the hell am I doing? I feel like crap.
[00:24:54] My emotions are all over the place. So I pretty, I stopped. And then I went [00:25:00] back on the dating scene, like online dating, and I put in my profile, I don't drink because I wasn't drinking. And, I wanted people just to swipe past me.Like, if they're not okay with me not drinking, then just count me out.
[00:25:15] and the person I eventually started dating did drink, and he later told me he wasn't really sure about me not drinking. but he, and I actually, I will say, I actually did drink some wine on our first few dates, and it felt, because it felt weird not to, and I wasn't like, I wasn't like sober, sober and so I did drink on our first few dates and I did have some drinks like on special occasions.
[00:25:45] Now again, alcohol was never my major issue. It was drugs. So, but, I really eventually told him like, I don't want to drink anymore. And, over time he went from, [00:26:00] I would say drinking quite like, not, not a lot, but definitely more than he does now.
[00:26:05] And he doesn't really drink that much anymore. He just finished dry January actually, totally completed it. No problem. And yes, he still drinks, but he will just have like a glass of wine here and there. He does still drink around me, but it doesn't bother me because he's not. ever drunk. I've actually never seen him drunk.
[00:26:26] if he were doing lines of coke, it would be a major issue for me. I know where my boundary is. So we have been together for almost four years now and our relationship absolutely does not center around alcohol at all. And I, I can't speak for him, but it, it did take some getting used to, for me, To be with someone who did drink, but it again, it's not our relationships doesn't center around it.
[00:26:53] So speaking of not having my relationship center [00:27:00] around alcohol, how can you find sober friendly date activities?
[00:27:05] Sonia: I think there's a spectrum right between a drinking activity and a sober activity because I could have drank at almost any activity, right? when I was drinking, I would have drank at mini golf, or I would have drank before after a movie, or maybe even during a movie if you could.
[00:27:21] But I think, there are so many things that you can do that aren't alcohol related, at least. So, museums, taking a class together, doing a sport, which I will not do. I'm not going to be your, your tennis doubles partner. a movie. and when I was Actively online, my profile was, let's find the best croissant in the city.
[00:27:47] Let's go to a DJ class. Let's go on an aimless walk. And so I think that. if you just sit with yourself and think, What do I like to do? Then the answer will be there, and [00:28:00] yeah, the, the wrong person could drink at it, right? They could drink at that activity, and so, yeah, a sporting event.
[00:28:07] Is it alcohol centered? Not necessarily, but 30 beers at it? Probably. how do you handle social situations involving alcohol with a new partner, like communicating your comfort level?
[00:28:22] Kathleen: I think you really have to be honest and let them know your boundaries. And, you know, I have a great example of this because this past Christmas, I went to my partner's family Christmas, and he has such a big, kind, And loving family, just like salt of the earth people, but they are not sober, they drink and drink.
[00:28:41] Drinking is very much a central part of their family gatherings. so I could have planned. I know you're a planner and I could have planned better for this. but my, my partner knows because we've been together for 4 years. Sohe knows what my boundaries are because I've been honest with him.
[00:28:57] And so he knew. that when people started to [00:29:00] get loud and they were like a bit over the top because of the booze, he was like, time to go. I actually, you know, if he hadn't said anything, I definitely would have, but now he just knows, like he can tell when my anxiety levels have increased and the gathering is just too much for me.
[00:29:16] So were we the first to leave? We were the first to leave. And He was totally fine with it. He knew he just, he wasn't really drinking at all. And so even for him, it was like kind of getting over the top, but he could just look at me and know, yep, it's time to go. But that has come from time.
[00:29:34] And then also for me being really honest and open about what my boundaries are.
[00:29:41] Sonia: Yeah, I love that. I think that's a good tip. how, and I think I know the answer to this. How does sobriety impact emotional vulnerability in relationships?
[00:29:51] Kathleen: Oh, you have to feel all of a sudden there's nothing to numb the emotion, whether good or bad, [00:30:00] and you have a few options here. You can push down the emotion. I do not recommend that or you can feel it and you can sit with the feelings and you can be vulnerable. Can be really scary, but it's vulnerability is really, really essential for a healthy relationship.
[00:30:17] So, yeah, you will have to feel you will have to feel.
[00:30:24] Sonia: Yeah, I agree. And this, I really am curious about, what are the signs of a healthy, supportive relationship for someone in recovery? What should I be looking for when I get into a
[00:30:36] relationship?
[00:30:37] Kathleen: I think that a partner respects your decision to stay sober and doesn't pressure you doing like engaging activities that could compromise your recovery. for example, the. THC bath bomb is a good example of not, not being supportive and not pressuring you. So, they understand the importance of this, like of [00:31:00] this part of your life and they
[00:31:01] Hold that space for you. Both partners should feel comfortable discussing their feelings and their challenges and their needs around it there also needs to be a an atmosphere of trust when you're having difficult conversations and that can be sharing aspects of your recovery that can be discussed without judgment.
[00:31:24] So that's a really key piece. Andyour partner should listen to your concerns and. You know, are a source of encouragement and positivity. obviously boundaries are important and in the context of recovery, that might mean understanding the need for space, respecting your choices to sobriety and supporting,recovery related activities like meetings, for example.
[00:31:49] Sonia: Yeah, and I remember you being supportive of my brother, going to meetings, even though he sort of stopped, a little bit into your relationship. this is a really good question how do you deal with [00:32:00] rejection? Related to your sobriety in the dating scene.
[00:32:04] Kathleen: Okay, so I am pretty no nonsense about this, and I really, really think that rejection is not necessarily rejection. Like, I think it can be, I'm not diminishing that it can feel like that, but What I mean is that the person is just not for you. does it mean that you're unlovable? No. Does it mean that you're not worthy?
[00:32:26] No. Does it mean that you have different values? Yes. Yes, it does. Does it mean that you may not be compatible in other areas of your relationship? Probably. So I am very much like, well, you know, it probably stings the rejection, the feeling of rejection, which can be tied to self worth. It doesn't feel good, but is it a rejection of you as a human being?
[00:32:51] It's not. It's this person is not for you.
[00:32:54] Sonia: I try to use that as a mantra for myself. this is interesting because I [00:33:00] haven't really gone out there and looked specifically for someone else in recovery. But, can that be beneficial or can it be challenging?
[00:33:09] Kathleen: I think it depends on the person. I think it depends on where they're at in their journey. Are they physically sober and emotionally sober or just physically sober? Are they doing the work on a continuous basis? basis. So I mean, your brother was a good example of this. He was physically sober when I met him, but he wasn't really emotionally sober and he did not continue to do any work on himself in this regard.
[00:33:40] So, I think it depends. Someone can say they're sober, but, Are they truly sober? So I think that's It really depends on the person. What resonated with you, Sonia, from today's episode? That's
[00:33:55] Sonia: what resonated with me was when you said that behavior [00:34:00] matters more. than words, and it's something I always have struggled with. I take what people say as what they mean, and, and don't always Connect the behavior to it, and I give people a pass when the behavior doesn't align, if they say the right thing.
[00:34:18] And so, yeah, I think that that's what I've learned, and actually that is a trigger for me, when someone says one thing and does another thing. And so that's, yeah, I think I learned that I need to be a little bit better at, and quicker. At seeing that disconnect. What res What resonated with you?
[00:34:43] Kathleen: You know, I think that your story about, one of the first guys you dated after your divorce who was really like pressuring you with the CBD bath bomb thing, I just, it really highlighted the fact that early on, right, we [00:35:00] can tell, is there support for sobriety? You can tell actually pretty, pretty soon into dating someone.
[00:35:09] and then it's really up to you. I do say like, don't date someone's potential, but it's like recognizing. That those little signs are actually big signs, right?
[00:35:23] Sonia: Yes, I agree. I need to I need to see the signs.
[00:35:27] Kathleen: And I will say, I just love that you're doubling down on your own self care and choosing not to date right now. And, I don't think I had ever shared that with you that I didn't date for over a year, which was Let's be frank, it was rare for me because I, I was a bit of a dating queen and I didn't date I think it's like a really healthy thing too.
[00:35:48] Sonia: I'm pretty sure it's easy to date on the apps when you're like, six foot tall, blonde, working in like, corporate stuff,
[00:35:57] Kathleen: are you, oh, are you talking about me?
[00:35:59] Sonia: Yeah, [00:36:00] I don't think, yeah, I can imagine it's pretty easy when you'd go on the apps, you'd probably have like 30 dates lined up. So yeah, taking a break for you probably was, was a big deal.
[00:36:10] Kathleen: I'm going to take that as a veiled compliment.
[00:36:14] Sonia: You should.
[00:36:15] Kathleen: Well, that's it for today. Thank you so much for listening to Sisters in Sobriety and we will see you next week when we talk about work and sobriety. [00:37:00]