Empowering Daughters Through Consent And Communication With Katie Koestner

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In this week s Dads with Daughters podcast we welcomed Katie Koestner an influential activist and the executive director of the Take Back the Night Foundation who shared powerful insights on teaching daughters about consent autonomy and resilience Here are some key takeaways from their enlightening conversation Understanding Consent and Autonomy Katie Koestner underscores the critical importance of educating daughters about consent and bodily autonomy Consent is not a one-time agreement that cannot be retracted it can be revoked at any moment Katie emphasizes teaching daughters the difference between regret and rape highlighting that a lack of initial resistance does not imply consent This understanding is vital for fostering an environment where daughters feel empowered to assert their rights and boundaries Healing from Trauma A Collective Journey Healing from trauma is an arduous yet rewarding journey that necessitates patience and collective support Katie reflects on her own experiences noting that regaining power and control over one s life is a long-term commitment It s essential for parents especially fathers to support their daughters through this process without taking away their agency Fathers should help their daughters navigate decisions collaboratively emphasizing that the journey and growth are more important than immediate outcomes Mentorship and Community Involvement Community involvement and mentorship programs like Take Back the Night are instrumental in fostering resilience and support networks for young women Katie encourages fathers to guide their daughters in engaging with empowering communities that can offer strength and solidarity Participating in such programs helps build a sense of belonging and mutual support which are critical for personal empowerment Fostering Equal and Respectful Relationships To raise daughters who thrive in healthy respectful relationships fathers need to challenge archaic notions of women needing to be taken care of Katie advocates for teaching daughters the value of equality and collaboration within relationships It s crucial for fathers to set an example by treating women with respect and equality in their own lives reflecting these values in everyday interactions Encourage daughters to seek partners who value collaboration mutual respect and independence rather than falling into roles dictated by outdated stereotypes Practical Tools for Empowerment Katie offers practical advice for fathers wanting to empower their daughters She suggests affirming their worth based on their talents energy and intellect rather than appearance Role-playing challenging scenarios can also help daughters prepare for difficult situations and build the confidence to handle them independently Katie s conversation with Dr Lewis reiterates the significance of dads actively contributing to their daughter s self-respect and ability to navigate the world confidently Take Back the Night and Advocacy Katie remains a staunch advocate against sexual assault through her work with the Take Back the Night Foundation which organizes events to raise awareness and support survivors She encourages community involvement in various forms such as bike races walks and vigils to promote solidarity and resilience Fathers can support this cause by participating with their daughters fostering a shared commitment to ending sexual violence In conclusion the episode with Katie Koestner on the Dads with Daughters podcast provides valuable insights into raising empowered resilient daughters Through understanding consent supporting the healing process fostering respectful relationships and active community involvement fathers can profoundly impact their daughters lives guiding them toward independence and confidence TRANSCRIPT Dr Christopher Lewis 00 00 05 Welcome to dads with daughters In this show we spotlight dads resources and more to help you be the best dad you can be Dr Christopher Lewis 00 00 16 Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters lives raising them to be strong independent women Really excited to have you back again this week And you know every week I love being able to sit down talk to you and work with you as you re walking through this journey that you re on to be the best dad that you want to be and working with your daughters to be those strong independent women that you want them to be as well That s why every week we have this opportunity to be able to sit down talk and to be able to learn and grow from each other but also from the people that come on to our show And it is really important that we re open to learning and growing and being able to truly hear what people have to say and to be able to take that in internalize it and turn it into something tangible that we can then use to be those dads that we want to be And that s why every week I love being able to bring you different guests different people with different experiences that can help you on this journey And today we ve got another great guest with us Katie Kessler is with us today Dr Christopher Lewis 00 01 22 And Katie is a activist on sexual assault She has worked for many years in the Take Back the Night Foundation She is the current director of the Take Back the Night Foundation She has a a story that we all should be here to be able to see what we can do to be able to assist our own daughters in having healthy relationships but also to be safe in their lives as they get older And I m really excited to be able to have her here and to be able to have her share her story and also to provide you with some some things to think about as we re moving forward in our own parenting journey Katie thanks so much for being here today Katie Koestner 00 02 07 Absolutely Chris thank you for having me Dr Christopher Lewis 00 02 09 It is my pleasure having you here today I m really excited to be able to share your story because it s not an easy story And definitely it s not I m sure it s not been an easy journey as you have become the advocate that you ve become in sexual assault And I I know that not everyone has heard your name before and not everyone knows that story but only you can tell that story in your way Can you tell tell me a little bit more Can you share your story with us and what led you to being the activist that you are today on sexual assault Katie Koestner 00 02 43 Absolutely I am delighted to do so So I think for all the dads out there importantly I am the daughter of an FBI agent and a homemaking mom I grew up outside of Atlanta Georgia and then my dad was transferred to Harrisburg Pennsylvania when I was in middle school and I had a younger sister I was pretty darn ambitious in every way and loved I would say everything from softball and swimming and field hockey to clarinet and trying to miss none on the SAT I won a scholarship and lived in Japan when I was 16 on to 17 in high school I was adventurous in every sort of the word I decided to go up to college and went to the College William and Mary in Virginia as I double majored in Japanese and chemistry Katie Koestner 00 03 34 And the orientation was a whirlwind whirlwind experience and I met a very handsome he could speak 3 languages wanted to be a brain surgeon played a great game of soccer incredible potential prince charming and well beyond what I had encountered in my life so far and quickly you know went out and hung out with him And he asked me out to dinner probably the 3rd weekend and to the fanciest most expensive French restaurant in town And any of you who don t know my story I m not gonna share all of it here because it s on TED Talks and I ve only lectured at 5 000 schools and I m sure there s clips here and there I ve been on open Good Morning American CNN NBC News lectured in front of a quarter of a 1000000 people on the mall in DC at the United Nations at the Pentagon just a few places along the way But the end of the story is I simply trusted this guy He paid for a very expensive dinner and I thought he would respect my being a virgin and waiting till I was married I wasn t drunk at dinner nor that night And I simply told this guy no Katie Koestner 00 04 39 And for historic purposes I m sure I am older than many of the dads who are listening I might be younger than a few but I was 18 and this was 1990 And I am the first woman in history to speak out nationally and publicly as the victim of date rape and appeared on the cover of Time Magazine at age 18 So I I stopped there just for a second because I think any dad listening is wondering now when I already alluded to the fact my dad was an FBI agent whether this perpetrator was going to live to see another day when I knew exactly where he lived and could talk tell my dad But unfortunately back then my dad said I shouldn t have had the boy to my room and it wouldn t have happened And while I think he probably had mixed emotions and I don t wanna oversimplify I do want to say that he was very traditional and very protective and very conservative which means in high school if a boy came to get me he would probably fingerprint the guy s the front doorknob He would wear his arsenal strapped on the outside as he answered the door He would usher the potential boyfriend to the family room with the dead animals hanging on the wall and then motion to the back of the house where the targets for bows and arrows were set up Katie Koestner 00 05 59 He was easily intimidating to most guys So before I go on I I would say that my dad s never heard me speak in all my life which is hard and it s one of my motivations for coming on your show Chris because I have two main themes that I would get across and then we can delve into the details But I m gonna start with the end first because this is way too important to me My father told me what to do in regard to boys He was very protective and I never I never had a bad boyfriend in high school Maybe that s because my dad was looming in the backdrop at all times But I will also say to all the dads protecting your daughter does not serve her She s gonna have to do it herself at some point And if not in high school then when So if she can learn how to fend for herself and navigate situations on her own you are gonna have a much stronger resilient confident daughter who will be able to suss out when things are not safe by herself and calling you for help is not what you want to have happen Katie Koestner 00 07 11 You want her to navigate the hard situation to come home that night or next morning at breakfast and to say dad I did it all by myself Sensed this one comment he made I was around his friends who were making fun of women and I knew better that this was not what I wanted and I m deserving of more Do you want her to say that when what I wanted and I m deserving of more You want her to say that when she s 14 when she s 16 and then you ll know when she goes off into the world she s gonna do it better on her own because she had you to fall back on if she had to But I would send her out on every date saying you ve got this You deserve respect It s not about your appearance Katie Koestner 00 07 58 It s about your amazing talent your energy your grace and your brilliance If you compliment her just on her appearance you re gonna teach a frail daughter I don t care how pretty she is but you ve got to compliment her on something other than that So I start with dads don t protect your daughters Let them teach themselves how to protect themselves And the second thing I would say is be mindful of how you talk about women at all times Be mindful of what you watch what screens you re on how you do or don t comment on women in movies women in television women in the media women in politics women in your work workforce What do you say about women that s the same or different from men And the more you treat all genders the same in terms of your analysis and your accolades or your criticisms the better off your daughter is gonna learn how to navigate the world through equity and respect Katie Koestner 00 08 57 And then lastly even if you re separated from the birth mother of your daughter even if she is the worst person you ve ever met God forbid always hold your hate inside and treat everyone even when they re wrongfully treating you even if they re a train wreck of a human it s really important that you teach your daughter that denigration is always wrong even when somebody else is wrong So sorry that was a mouthful Chris but like I wanted to get those things out on the table and get dads really thinking about them because those two important things are probably the most helpful I can be And I I would also footnote that I do have children now of my own I have 16 year old twins They re not girls They re boys And so I I m on the flip side of your your equation I m a mom of boys not a dad of a daughter but I think we could talk about that later on is like how do you parent all your kids and how when your daughters are out on dates if they if they actually like boys who knows What does that look like Because I m raising my sons Katie Koestner 00 10 02 I think they re both into girls maybe not quite so much yet but I I think that s the track they re on I m not too judgy People are people but I definitely want them to be somebody s best date and best memory even if they re not in men I want them to be good humble respectful young men and that s what you should be asking your daughters to look for if they re into men into boys So and don t look me up if your daughter wants a date Like my boys are not once like ready for like full time studying and the other one s too much on his games to be even intriguing to a girl yet So don t look me up for dates for your daughter Dr Christopher Lewis 00 10 40 I love what you shared right there And I think and I have to say I m sorry that you had that experience with your own father and but I appreciate what you had to say and the advice that you gave to fathers because I think it is so important for us as men and as fathers to be able to support our daughters in many different ways And you talked about the fact that for you one of the the first things that you mentioned was to treat your daughter to fend for herself to be able to navigate situations by herself I want you to think back to your own father and what could he have done for you that would have allowed you or made you feel that he was giving you the ability to fend for yourself And what can other dads do tangibly to be able to start on that path with their own daughters Katie Koestner 00 11 29 Yeah Fantastic question Chris And this is called I would say one of those conversations of courage And not every human is wired to have this kind of conversation And I mean I m gonna be honest A lot of people aren t comfortable with their own sexualities their own relationships and and men and women both And I ll footnote it with this If you re a dad and wants to have what I m about to describe with your daughter And you re like oh crap Katie Koestner 00 11 55 I totally can t do that I don t have that vocabulary I couldn t come up with that sentence structure This makes me feel awkward I I could look I d be like so nervous Like that s totally okay Not everybody has to be you know not everyone s a brain surgeon Not everyone s a psychologist Katie Koestner 00 12 10 Not everyone s into like you everybody has different skill sets What I want to have happen right now is for the dads listening to hear me model it and then say if I don t think I can say this I should at least tell my daughter There s a few things I m really awkward at saying that I want you to hear and then listen to this podcast Push play like right here Like oh I ve listened to this woman Katie once and she was trying to say it I I can t do it the same way but pretend it s my voice and I m your dad And like seriously I don t I don t care You it takes a team of like 8 or 9 people to raise a a great kid and you have to have a lot of role models and a lot and all that matters to me at the end of the day is is intent and try Katie Koestner 00 12 54 I intend to do this I tried to do this I might not be great at it People will see your intent and that you tried So here s kind of what I would say You said how could my dad have done it And it s very simple You d you say like she s really interested in a guy or somebody a date a prospect She s going out to a party Katie Koestner 00 13 11 She s going to her first homecoming She s going to the think of any number of potential social situations The best thing you can say is darling sweetie whatever you say Jenny Susie you know Aloysius whatever her name is You say I know tonight s really important I don t know how many of these kind of social things you ve done but what s really important to me is that you know you are that good You know you deserve respect You know what your morals your values are Katie Koestner 00 13 40 You know what you want to to have happen tonight Keep that in mind throughout the whole time You wanna walk away from tonight feeling positive respected You wanna come home and feel like tomorrow s gonna be a great day And if someone treats you at all with disrespect you know that you don t have to take it You don t have to stay in that environment There s never an okay reason where someone should say anything that s degrading No one should touch you in a way that makes you uncomfortable and you can navigate a way out Katie Koestner 00 14 12 If you want to we can role play some of the ways you could do that tonight If you think you re all set I m here a phone call away a text away if you need me That s all You just just remind her she s worth it Put her eye on the prize which is like at the end of the night she wants to come home safe respected and tomorrow is gonna be a great day And that s it You don t have to go into the nitty gritty You don t have to say like what if he tries to like girls might feel awkward about that Katie Koestner 00 14 40 That could be a different class Like if somebody tried to touch you how are you gonna if she wants to go there But if you re just on square one that s all you have to say It s like you ve got this Not like go oh you look so pretty sweetie You don t need don t say her dress is great her skirt s cute her hair looks great That s fine But really more important than how she looks is being being confident in how she should be treated all all night or all day Like whatever the event is focus more on how she should feel and end up being respected Katie Koestner 00 15 12 Not like I mean do logistics How s she gonna get home Who s driving What happens You could do some logistics But if you just constantly say you deserve respect you re amazing you re talented how do you want this night to end Just focus on the the finish line all the time I mean what do athletes do What it what s anyone who wants to a date is nothing more than an event where you wanna succeed And succeed is like be safe and not be assaulted and have fun Dr Christopher Lewis 00 15 38 Now one of the things you talked about in your story you talked at the beginning that you met the gentleman at college kind of the prince charming effect in many different ways And then you talked about the importance of really as you re parenting and as you re working not in in our situation here in my situation working with my daughters to identify and try to figure out what to look for in a relationship whether it be with a man with a woman whatever it might be I guess as you think back to your experiences and the experiences of others that you ve spoken to on your podcast Dear Katie survivor stories or in your experience in speaking in so many different places What advice would you give to fathers that are listening that could help them with their daughters to be able to navigate those relationships and help them to provide them with the tools that they should be looking for in those healthy relationships Katie Koestner 00 16 41 A healthy relationship you re gonna hear a lot of working together collaboration It s not me me me me The partner or guy who s all about himself and constantly boasting or bragging he s actually frail Like frail in his ego in that he might need to also eventually use his partner as part of his power play And anyone who simply talks about themselves their achievements it s fine to be a high achiever That s great It s fine to be talented and smart but it s really important to find a partner who s also equally interested in having a partner who is also talented also brilliant also smart and wants to like do things collaboratively not for You know old school men are like I ll do this for you Katie Koestner 00 17 30 I ll take care of you That language is dead Nobody should be taken care of anymore We re not in the dark ages So I think the woman today needs to dad to say you ve got this on your own and the best thing you can hope for is a collaborator not a take care of her because no one s gonna be able to take care of anyone else unless you re being purchased essentially Being taken care of means you have less power less equality less confidence No one needs to be taken care of I think that this is not to say and I wanna nuance this you can have 2 totally different lanes Katie Koestner 00 18 08 And I ll even go so far as to say it s fine if one is a full time stay at home parent and all they want to be is a maybe full time mom I wanna have 5 kids I wanna bake cookies I wanna clean the house I wanna be the PTA I wanna do all I wanna volunteer That s all fine as long as it s a pure choice So I mean the gender roles who cares But the idea is is there respect and valuation that s equitable between the partners And that s a lot that s thinking way ahead Katie Koestner 00 18 40 But at the root of a relationship when you start out you can get your daughter thinking about how how does this partner value what I do How does he or they see what I do And if she s being taught and trained that she needs someone to be taking care of her that s gonna only cripple her long term safety and success Dr Christopher Lewis 00 19 02 I appreciate that as well because I think you re right I mean I know in my own situation with my own daughters I don t want them to feel crippled by to their success as you just mentioned I want them to be able to have those healthy relationships And Katie Koestner 00 19 15 Yeah I think what I d like to say Chris is it s gloriously amazing to be the power couple Seriously who wouldn t want that You see you see a few that are still like kept wise and you know people kind of pity them now Nobody s like oh what a glorious fabulous relationship you have because all you do is dress up like a Barbie doll hence the movie But I think it s an age of glorious and we went through some individual like you might go back We re so old Chris Like the eighties you know we had all the like me me me s Then we had you know the decades are interesting when we look back at them but I think we re we re hopefully going into an age of this amazing it s the combination of individuality that blends together into cooperation to build something even more beautiful Katie Koestner 00 20 08 And I do think you know partnerships and relationships can be that good It s really there s no such thing as a renaissance person anymore Like it s impossible We have micro slices of everything in the world So the best thing we can hope for is 2 really dedicated kind amazing committed people who say like things are gonna get hard That s I actually that brings me to a really good point Fights are good Disagreements because you know why The moment she comes your daughter comes home and is like oh my god Katie Koestner 00 20 39 He made me so mad You that s good That s like okay Well how did how did you resolve it Because if you can t work together and not that s the tell That s like the next level tell If you have to think about the first date tells like where he makes some random joke or he can t pay look you in the eye if he s checking his phone every second If he s asking you who your follow these are warning signs Is he gonna say why are you following him What do you see Like jealousy is a really bad one Katie Koestner 00 21 08 Telling like why you why you not not allowing your daughter to have other male friends That s a big red flag Like if a guy goes out with you and I mean hello It s it s 2024 Like if you can t have male friends I remember I was in the chess club in 6th grade and I was like the only girl So I only hung out with boys and I was not dating the entire chess club Let me just tell you No Katie Koestner 00 21 34 It was not like that I was just like these are the cool smart guys Like I know And luckily back then I had male friends but I think you ve gotta have a male partner who s good You can talk to a guy and not be jealous Like even if he s cuter than you Even if he s better at soccer than you Like who cares Like a secure guy is what you want Katie Koestner 00 21 56 He s not constantly jealous because he s ultimately gonna be manipulative and and doing power plays That I would say that s another one I m thinking small things I don t care about like send you flowers and open the door Who cares Sometimes people get hung up on like oh my god I can t see the guy who holds the door I m like give it up Like he s just trying to be nice Katie Koestner 00 22 16 Hold the door for him If he sends you flowers send him flowers I think you break all the rules And if he spies into silly stuff like guys can t get flowers what s wrong with you Again it s 2024 I mean maybe you don t wanna paint your nails blue as a guy but that s fine But if they buy into too many rigid stereotypes there s going to be a problem down the road And I think building in that like wow creativity is helpful because later in life the more open minded and creative someone is by the time they get to our age Chris you bet they re gonna get really dry and boring if they don t have a creative open mind You wanna see all of those awesome traits Katie Koestner 00 22 56 I guess I last thing is do pay attention I hate to say this but many rapists we didn t talk about this many rapists themselves were also victimized So do pay attention No It s a little bit let s say a few stats Like 1 in 4 women or girls is raped sexually assaulted in her lifetime About 1 in 6 to 1 in 8 men the same Now the difference is the 1 in 6 to 8 men often go on to become perpetrators Katie Koestner 00 23 22 And the 1 in 4 women a lot of them go on to be victimized again because once you ve had it happen once there s such a huge blow to your confidence and ego as a woman Many women turn that against themselves their shame and blame and many men turn it outward as anger So a young man s own experience with relationships and and or abuse is really important to find I mean you don t wanna like quiz him on the first date and give him an interview but you do wanna find out and see how do they if they have a mother how do they treat their mother If they have a father how do they treat their father How do they do they fight constantly Is there a lot of tension I hate to say it It s not what they what do your parents look like Because then I ll know how you look when you look old Okay That s fine If the girl s like I wanna see your dad Katie Koestner 00 24 10 Is he bald to know if he ll be bald No offense taken But like I think that s so not important I mean it is more important to see how they interact though with their siblings and with their parents That part s really important Dr Christopher Lewis 00 24 26 You know those numbers are really staggering And you know when I think of 1 in 4 girls experiencing this type of trauma I guess one question that I would ask of you is thinking about that stat how can fathers support their daughters if they come to them and say I ve experienced this trauma Katie Koestner 00 24 46 Okay Two best sentences ever Ready 1 is well 3 1st is I m so glad you trusted me enough to tell me 2nd is I m so sorry this happened to you And thirdly is what can I do to help you right now That s it And then everything else you re gonna have to figure out as you go because everyone s gonna be different The situation might be urgent Katie Koestner 00 25 08 It might be immediate danger It might be and I ll just nutshell it this way There s 3 things to think about all the time First one and I ll do them in order of expiration date If it s recent medical attention is paramount Medical attention also means collecting evidence You have 3 to 5 days after a sexual assault or rape to get evidence collected It s free Katie Koestner 00 25 29 It s done at usually a hospital rape crisis center It can be held evidence can be held for up to 2 years There s no pressing immediacy to to go forward with the district attorney But if you don t get the evidence it can t be used later And that s important because what many of the dads thinking about right now it may not make sense 84 of sexual assaults involve someone the victim knows Trust likes not a stranger off the street So if you get your thinking evidence collected well we already know who it is Katie Koestner 00 25 57 Even microscopic patterns of bruising and tearing on the victim can prove what her body position was in whether she was asleep passed out if she was up against a wall Like all of it now is so great and scientifically proven that can help sway a jury if there was ever a trial about the likelihood of consent So medical medical medical And then of course pregnancy STIs all potential and have them looked at immediately And obviously we ve got a shape shifting goings on about what to do about unwanted pregnancies including through rape across the country So you ll have to think about what state you re in and what your okay So that s first And second after medical is reporting options Katie Koestner 00 26 39 If it s within 8 years most states will take a rape case for criminal prosecution If a girl is a minor when this happens it might even be longer But mindfully let s nuance this a little bit Let s say she s 14 and her boyfriend s 17 That could be statutory rape in most states even if it s her boyfriend So if your daughter is 14 having sex with her 17 or 18 year old boyfriend that technically could be rape in most every state in the country I m not sure you wanna prosecute her boyfriend if she really likes him if you find out they had sex but I m just letting you know If indeed it was an adult let s say it was her 30 year old soccer coach that s definitely gonna be sexual abuse of a minor and the statute of limitations on that can be much longer Katie Koestner 00 27 25 It can be entirely a whole lifetime So the age does matter and the state does matter for how long you have to criminally prosecute Luckily luckily Take Back the Night the foundation has started The the Take Back the Night predates me by a lot It s over 50 years old as a movement around the world to end sexual violence and support survivors But over 20 years ago I corralled all the event holders and created the foundation But we about 4 years ago also put together something called the sexual assaults victims legal support hotline So that is so important Katie Koestner 00 28 02 It s 1567 shatter for any dad listening That s free It s confidential and it puts you through to an attorney who s steeped in this kind of information who can go over your rights and options I just put that out there in case someone s all of a sudden interested But that that s criminal Then you also we have 2 more systems of reporting of justice So I think of them as the 3 c s We have the criminal system then secondly we have the civil system Katie Koestner 00 28 30 Civil is where let s say your daughter was assaulted by the soccer coach at school She could potentially sue the school You you know you all could because of sexual assault of a minor and failure to protect her and all kinds of things A civil suit you usually just have 2 years Again there s some exceptions The third one though is the campus reporting system If it s a college you have as long as the perpetrators affiliated with the college you can report it and have some sort of adjudication If it was your high school or elementary school or middle school same deal Katie Koestner 00 29 05 There s also a school campus system So remember criminal civil and campus are three areas where you can report And that legal support hotline I just mentioned 567 shatter is a great option to learn about any and all The third thing so we did first is medical attention 2nd is reporting The third thing to tell her is emotional or long term support and healing There s no expiration date Obviously that can be done anytime Katie Koestner 00 29 33 There s no one size fits all It could be their rabbi It could be their priest It could be a professional rape crisis counselor It could be online BetterHelp It could be there s a million different ways to get emotional support but it takes more than one person to heal Meaning the victim by themselves almost always benefits from having someone else to talk to And sometimes the parent needs also support and counseling Katie Koestner 00 29 57 You re a secondary trauma victim You re trying to help your daughter and it can feel exhausting So don t hesitate to do good self care for you and your partner along the way or your other children You know it can be so devastating and frustrating and the spin out can include everything from drug addiction alcohol addiction suicide eating disorders like metal all kinds of depression it can be really rough Bodily trauma of a sexual nature is just really hard to process Dr Christopher Lewis 00 30 28 One of the things that I guess from what you 2 were talking about is that education is important And especially health and wellness education when it comes to our children s bodies and helping them to understand that What would you say are some practical steps that fathers can take to educate their daughters about consent and what they should know for themselves as they go out into the world Katie Koestner 00 30 53 Well some schools do a really good job of consent education Many do not But essentially that was the whole if anyone researches back into my case when I was raped at William and Mary the entire country and William and Mary s policy had sexual assault and rape as only happening to women by definition because only women were property and rape was a crime of property That s the history of it You know when you hear the phrase damaged goods damaged goods basically meant a woman was no longer a virgin She d be more expensive to marry off and that s where that phrase came from And I was the one who came along at 30 3 years ago Chris and said I m not damaged goods And if a man doesn t wanna marry me I don t wanna marry him Katie Koestner 00 31 37 And why is rape the only crime where force is required If I reached out and said give me your money and you had your wallet in your hand and I just took it I wouldn t have to you wouldn t have to say well she punched me to take it If I took your wallet I stole from you Like whether or not you like had a very nice gold watch on you could be you know wearing expensive clothes No one could say oh you must give away lots of money and be rich Why would you miss your wallet You were asking for it But I go back to consent because I helped rewrite the law to say it should be simply the lack of consent not the action of resistance And dads dads dads that s critical Your daughter doesn t have to fight off her attacker and she doesn t even have to say no even though that would be great I m sure in your minds Katie Koestner 00 32 26 But if she freezes up and doesn t feel like she can do anything and just lays there that s still not consent So it s really important for you to validate Like don t rank how she responded Like if only you had been like superwoman and had out your gold braces and your golden whip and like your steel belt you know and gotten the guy Like who cares It s over It was still wrong It s not like more wrong or less wrong It s just wrong wrong Katie Koestner 00 32 53 So all rape is wrong wrong There s not like oh my gosh I here s a fun story Chris In all the education I do one time I was talking to some boys in high school and one was like but you know what if she leads me on And I just get it s I m I m at the point in a return And I said oh my gosh That s so that sounds so interesting Like so let s just run this through Like imagine you re over at your girlfriend s house and you re making out on the sofa because her parents are gone out for the weekend or out of town like for dinner or something Katie Koestner 00 33 22 They re out out and you 2 were just going at it and you re at this point you know return And then all of a sudden at the back door you hear the jingling of the keys The parents are unexpectedly home I said young man I know exactly what you would do You d holler out like mister and missus Smith you think you could just wait outside for a couple of minutes I m almost done with your daughter and it s the point of no return for me and I just can t stop right now You know like the absurdity Right Like any there s no such thing We re not animals Katie Koestner 00 33 50 We can totally stop Even if it s uncomfortable awkward embarrassing horrible there s no such thing as we re not out of our mind and body having sex So I think it s really important to tell your daughter like if all of a sudden it s hurting if it doesn t feel good whatever her I don t know what the values of your dads are but whatever they are she should know There s no point at which it s too late to say no I say when someone said to me Chris once they said when is rape regret And I said regret is when you change your mind afterwards Rape is when you change your mind in the middle and they don t stop If you change your mind after after and say I shouldn t have done that that s regret It s not rape Katie Koestner 00 34 31 If you change your mind 5 minutes in if they keep going it s still rape So I think those are those are nuanced things for dads to hear but I think if they can talk to their daughter and that sounds like a way awkward conversation for most dads but just put the podcast on again This is sex ed consent ed 101 Dr Christopher Lewis 00 34 49 You know the other thing you just talked about was the fact that healing takes time and it takes effort And it s it s something that s going to be a multi year entire life situation So talk to me about the process that you had to go through but also that what you tell to other survivors in regards to what it looks like to regaining power regaining your life but also are there things that dads can do to be able to support their daughters on that journey Katie Koestner 00 35 21 I ll start with the last part of your question first Things dads should not do is take away agency Meaning here s the difference and nuance there Taking away agency it means not doing everything for them or telling them what to do Taking weight that s taking away agency Giving agency means let s make a list together and let s do the research If you re up for it help me do the research If not I m the dad Katie Koestner 00 35 47 I I ll take this on I ll make the whole list of options that I can find Then I ll review them Let s think about them together The best thing a dad can do or anyone could do is start to collaborate and build more control and power and agency back into the victim The more you here here s a good small point If they really want to try if you wanna put the guy in jail let let s say the traditional dad reaction we need to put him in jail You know what The average rapist rapes 12 to 17 times before going to jail Katie Koestner 00 36 19 The conviction rape on sexual violence is the lowest of any crime This is the tough reality It s fine So jail time is not likely However the entire process of seeking power and control and some sort of I tried is that in and of itself has to be honored And so often I think I hate to ever stereotype men but men sometimes get caught up on the outcome instead of the process Men sometimes wanna come up with the answer instead of talk it through You know that s a total stereotype Katie Koestner 00 36 52 Women are like I just wanna talk to you about this I don t need an answer and I wanna get men better at like I m very outcome driven Chris Like seriously like I m just one on the SAT I m a math girl I m a science girl I like the data I like to crunch the numbers I like to win Katie Koestner 00 37 09 I like to be successful I like to speak in front of a quarter of a 1000000 people You know I m very very driven So but I also like the process because what I did helped So I ll go back now to the other part of your question So dads should sit with the process Don t take away the agency Don t provide the outcome Katie Koestner 00 37 27 Don t get to the finish line Let your daughter run the marathon herself She s got to However what happened in my world was a little unique because there was no name for what happened to me So I literally had to research everything old school before the Internet go to the library get some books read law books at the law school at William and Mary I did what I could because I was confident enough in every aspect of my life that I could do this And I got there in high school and in middle school Like I had already felt like the one good thing I will say my parents did is they they re like do everything Katie Koestner 00 38 04 They always said you re never good enough but they were they were also like do everything They never limited what I could do except for going to MIT I wanted to go to MIT Sorry Well they said we don t have enough money for MIT and there s not enough girls there That s what my mom said Anyway that aside I think what helped me so much was I learned and I taught and I sat in it and I did everything I changed laws Katie Koestner 00 38 27 I tested on in Capitol Hill If you read that Time Magazine you ll see me testifying on Capitol Hill when I m only 18 years old I made a movie with HBO about my story No one helped me I just did it I went to World to get that picture taken I I I debated the vice president of my my college on Larry King Live when he was alive I stunk at it Katie Koestner 00 38 47 I was a terrible debater I went and I did and I flew and I tried and I talked to other survivors I became a rape crisis counselor I answered that hotline from 11 to 7 AM while I was in college I immersed myself in the pain of myself and others by full immersion and I won t say I deleted everything else I m very lucky I still was getting a s and still going to classes and still am doing everything else But I think that by burying things we hurt more Katie Koestner 00 39 17 The wound does not heal with a patch The wound heals when we put it in full sunlight and we we just go with it And who cares Like that s a great scar You got through it You survived and you went on For a while I wanna go back one thing Your daughter might go through a phase Why in the blank did this have to happen to me Is there something wrong with me And you ve simply gotta tell her it happens to a lot of people Katie Koestner 00 39 42 It s not you You re unfortunately my dear you re not special It happens to 25 of women So it s just you were one of those but let s makes it had to happen for you Let s why Let s do something with this Let s make it into something more Let s make it part of who you are in a positive way And and and I would and here s a way that I think about that Katie Koestner 00 40 02 If someone you care a lot about in your life dies like your grandmother your auntie you don t say when are you gonna get over it That pain that horrible gap in your heart no one says when are you gonna stop missing your grandma That s wrong Big losses in life you re like how do you honor her Big losses we honor them if we re on the right path We figure out what s glorious about that about her about that experience and what goes forward That s the way to to spin anything And and and and even for the dads who fortunately hopefully don t have daughters in distress start teaching her how to spin everything that s bad into positive as fast as possible Get over it It s not you Katie Koestner 00 40 43 It s them How do I navigate a different path If I don t like what I m on how do I change the lanes That is resiliency I ll say like now I ll also say this for any dad who s still listening to me Your daughter s I have a 14 year old intern on my team She is magnificent She helps with my podcast and I mentor if you have a daughter who wants to kick butt in the world join the Take Back the Night team We have volunteers across even all the way to Kenya We have Benter who does our like it s so cool and amazing Katie Koestner 00 41 15 We empower every single woman and and we teach them business skills And if your daughter can t like how about flourishing with fabulous like international global women young women Like we have amazing women I would our 14 year old is the youngest volunteer but my gosh we have a team of like 50 They re so we put them on teams Like your daughter should be around like if she s on into sports Like what team is she on Don t let her isolate Don t let her find her heart just in one boy Like put her around amazing people who are gonna push her help her thrive Katie Koestner 00 41 57 That s gonna make her really amazing So I m just plugging like I don t care if it s Take Back the Night I do care if it s something Just find some way to put around not just singing I know Not pooh poohing singing I can t sing at all I can t do singing Katie Koestner 00 42 15 I can t do car wheels But I I think you know it s putting around people who will push her in a positive way Honor her spirit push her enough to be ready to take criticism in a positive way Like all of the things you want Right Like those are all great things They re very idealistic If you can t tell I m very positive that the glass is always almost full Dr Christopher Lewis 00 42 40 Well Katie I just wanna say thank you for sharing your journey but sharing all of this amazing insight today If people wanna find out more about you your story your organization where should they go to find out more Katie Koestner 00 42 53 Love love that First of all believe it or not I still go around the country and speak I just got back from speaking in Nantucket How fun was that I took a ferry to my speech That s the first time I could say that But I think I love speaking but I also have a team of speakers So if you want more education in your community that is either Google Katie Koestner my name or you can go right to campus outreach services and that s education and awareness There s tons of ideas there Katie Koestner 00 43 23 2nd idea take back the night We are always eager to have more volunteers more financial support Go read about the hotline and coolness You could even plan a take back the night event in your own community We have a whole team who will help you It s just a one day event of awareness You could do a bike race You can do a walk Katie Koestner 00 43 42 You can do a vigil You can have it at your church You can have it at your school You can have it at your business but an event is a way of honoring and bringing awareness So I encourage everybody to do that as well But thank you Chris This is fabulous This is so much fun Dr Christopher Lewis 00 43 58 Well I truly appreciate you being here today Thank you for all the work that you re doing to support so many across the globe and I wish you all the best Katie Koestner 00 44 06 Absolutely Take care Dr Christopher Lewis 00 44 08 If you ve enjoyed today s episode of the dads with daughters podcast we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along And the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood Through our extensive course library interactive forum step by step roadmaps and more you will engage and learn with experts but more importantly dads like you So check it out at fatheringtogether org If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community there s a link in the notes today Dads with Daughters is a program of fathering together Dr Christopher Lewis 00 44 57 We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be Dr Christopher Lewis 00 45 06 We re all in the same boat and it s full of tiny screaming passengers We spend the time We give the lessons We make the meals We buy them presents and bring your a game Because those kids are growing fast The time goes by just like a dynamite blast Calling astronauts and firemen carpenters and muscle men Get out and be the world to them Be the best dad you can be Dr Christopher Lewis 00 45 59 Be the best dad you can be Click here to visit this podcast episode

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